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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Just from a quick google, an example of shell execution from a
php exploit:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=432&t=516818">http://forum.joomla.org/viewtopic.php?f=432&t=516818</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>And if the hacker gets to upload programs (a recent zen cart and
wordpress hack enabled attackers to upload arbitrary files)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="http://projects.webappsec.org/OS-Commanding">http://projects.webappsec.org/OS-Commanding</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/502434">http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/502434</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Other examples would be hacking the cms/cart to place files on
the site which could be used to for just about any miscreant purpose which
might allow the attacker to get a priviledge elevation or exploit some
unpatched bug to do server wide damage. When does this become an issue for the
host? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>What alarm bells are you referring to? A php program doing a system
call()? What do you use to detect this and set off the bells? A hacked site is
a risk to the server.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Another way a hacked site can risk the server is by creating a
spam relay – sending out spam messages through the server and getting the
IP blacklisted. I do have log checks that will usually catch this for me, but
this is usually after the fact. I know if you have had to play the “get
my server out of the RBL’s game you will probably agree it’s a game
noone really likes to play.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I do try to keep my servers reasonably locked down. Certainly
there is a perpetual tug-of-war between security and keeping a server open
enough to be useful to clients.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>With respect to hosting company liability, if some hosting
company turns on register globals (not a good idea, but they don’t want
to break old software that depends upon it) in their php config and this leads
to a client getting hacked, do you say that the host has no liabilitiy in this
in those places like the UK and Oz? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Is the hosting company required to notify the client of this
less secure configuration? Is this an area where the hosting company might be
consider complicit in the site getting hacked through their configuration
choice? I think at the least, in the US, it might be arguable. Might not stand
up in a trial, but enough to cause a big PitA with a client angry and looking
for compensation and someone to blame.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>We could argue this forever, but should we clog the list with
this sort of back and forth when we agree on a good bit?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> -Stephanie<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><br>
</span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
blueonyx-bounces@blueonyx.it [mailto:blueonyx-bounces@blueonyx.it] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>James Darbyshire<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, September 26, 2010 12:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> BlueOnyx General Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [BlueOnyx:05468] Re: Dealing with /admin URL 'hijacking<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Hi Steph,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>At risk of turning this into a email yo-yo, (and please
don't take this, or anything I have said as an attack on you or your chosen
best practises) I reply to your email. I am always up for a good debate, and
hearing other's points of view - especially when there is no clear-cut answer,
and all methods are mainly someone's interpretation/education of what 'best
practise' is. Important to note that best practise changes, and yesterdays best
may be today's worst.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>As stated in my previous emails, I agree, changing the
default path from /admin to something different is definitely best
practise, and I actually encourage anyone to do this, however my warnings were
against the myriad of people who think that placing something in a directory
which is unlikely to be found is security. This is something I have found in
the past, where hosting companies have provides directories such as /adm-a8r30
or provided an obscure port number for the admin panel.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>What I fail to understand from your emails, is how breaching
something like a CMS would allow access to a shell. Surely if someone is using
the same access credentials for their CMS as their shell then the alarm bells
should be on overdrive. Current best practise suggests that security is
compartmentalised, meaning that a breach in one area does not mean we are
nearing the apocalypse for all areas.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>If a client gets hacked, yes it is bad. And yes it should
have been spotted and acted upon years ago. And yes as the host you are
responsible for guiding them in the right direction to ensure it does not
happen again. However, I doubt that there are many sites out there, which, if
hacked, would cause the parent company to be shutdown. The days of merchant
accounts being redirected to another account number causing someone to go bust
are pretty well gone, and even if it does happen, in most cases you are
protected for the entirety of your 'lost' capital.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>As I stated in my previous email, I can only talk for the
Australian (and British) legal systems, where the host is responsible for the
security of the server, and the client is responsible for the security of the
installed software, so in these systems there would be no legal defence costs
for a host, as there is simply no problem with a CMS being hacked, those
credentials having access to shell, and then gaining access to the root user of
the system. I am not saying that it can't happen, but with proper planning and
security measures it becomes such a small possibility that it is not worth persisted
worry about.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>FYI we restrict access to the root user and other
'administrative' users to come from one public IP, meaning that in order to
shell into our box you have to be connected to the VPN first. It works a charm,
because even if someone does know your public IP they cannot gain access to the
most important areas.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>James Darbyshire<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On 26 September 2010 13:07, Stephanie Sullivan <<a
href="mailto:ses@aviaweb.com">ses@aviaweb.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Ah, James,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Indeed security through obscurity is not
security. However, changing default paths improves the odds of avoiding an
attack and can be an important part in an overall security plan. In fact
suggesting one thing is “the answer” is not at all my intention and
I hope you are not trying to suggest there is “a solution”...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>And if the client is breached, gets
shell, and well, whatever, the server is potentially much more at risk. Far
more so than if the client was not breached.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>In any case, I may not have been clear
in my wording when I was writing about who is responsible where. The client may
claim the hosting company had some complicit negligence. Even if not true,
legal fees can be staggering and the overhead of a defense great.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Reputations can be trashed, even when
not deserved, and that has repurcutions. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>If my client gets hacked it’s bad
for them and that is bad for my buisness, especially if they go out of
business.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>
Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'>
-Stephanie</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a
href="mailto:blueonyx-bounces@blueonyx.it" target="_blank">blueonyx-bounces@blueonyx.it</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:blueonyx-bounces@blueonyx.it" target="_blank">blueonyx-bounces@blueonyx.it</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Darbyshire<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 25, 2010 7:38 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<b>To:</b> BlueOnyx General Mailing List<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b>Subject:</b> [BlueOnyx:05466] Re: Dealing with /admin URL
'hijacking<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Steph,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>But what you are suggesting is that security by obscurity is the answer in
this case - which is a dangerous path to follow.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>It may be easier for someone to break into the CMS than into the BO backend,
but once they are into BO then they can do everything you suggested, not only
to one site, but to every site on that host.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I don't know how uou run your business, or how the law works in the US, but
here in Australia the client is responsible for the security of what they
install on their website, and the host is responsible for the security of the
server. If a CMS was hacked, I would not be responsible.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Of course the optimal solution would be to use some kind of TLS and
intelligent intrusion detection software on both systems which locks access out
when it thinks an attack is taking place.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Rashid, I suspect you are correct on saying that BO authentication is
probably harder to crack than that of a stock CMS, but the point sound be that
yes an attacker can get into one website and cause havoc, but only within that
CMS on that specific site. Other sites will be unaffected. I would also hazard
a guess that many people are not as vigilant as you or I, and do not frequently
change their passwords.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>In short, I don't believe security by obscurity is the answer in either
case, but I would rather the attacker accessed one site only, and not the
server which has access to all.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>James Darbyshire<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Sent from my Samsung Droid™<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On
26/09/2010 1:28 AM, "Stephanie Sullivan" <<a
href="mailto:ses@aviaweb.com" target="_blank">ses@aviaweb.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I must not concur. That’s not the
worst thing. Picture this:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>They break into my client’s
zencart, oscommerce or CC processor integrated cms (as joomla and drupal
have plugins/extensions and I have clients using them). The get into the
client’s site and modify the CC credentials to process using their bogus
merchant account. Maybe they put a hack in to steal their CC numbers. Now you
have a security breach that has big legal implications that you and/or your
client have to legally disclose in the US. You probably have clients screaming
at you about bogus charges on their card. Eventually the site is defaced and
their tracks are covered by wiping most of your database. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Finally your client’s reputation
is damaged/destroyed and they are angry with you and spread the word they got
hacked on your platform damaging your reputation, etc…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I would think it’s far from the
worst thing. Of course it may be worse if you are the client than the hosting
company.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>
Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'>
-Stephanie</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a
href="mailto:blueonyx-bounces@blueonyx.it" target="_blank">blueonyx-bounces@blueonyx.it</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:blueonyx-bounces@blueonyx.it" target="_blank">blueonyx-bounces@blueonyx.it</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Darbyshire<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 25, 2010 10:30 AM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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To: BlueOnyx General Mailing List</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>
[BlueOnyx:05461] Re: Dealing with /admin URL 'hijacking</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style='color:#500050'><br>
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I disagree. Certainly it is not best practise for any admin functions to be
accessible through ...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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_______________________________________________<br>
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-- <br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
James Darbyshire<br>
<a href="mailto:jamesdarbyshire@gmail.com">jamesdarbyshire@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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